You know what, romance novels?

[christinex1001]

You and I are done. DONE.

OK, I tried. I tried to "research the market." I read contemporaries. I read historicals. I read paranormals. And out of all of them, I think I actually really liked two of them. And those two were both written by Jennifer Crusie.

I thought it would be a great fit. I mean, hey, I love to WRITE romance. So I figured reading it would be cake, even though up until that point I'd always been more of an SF/F person, with the occasional mystery or suspense novel thrown in for good measure (along with a good leavening of Jane Austen and my annual rereads of LOTR).

Um, no.

Maybe I've just bought (yes, BOUGHT...there's a chunk of change I'll never get back) a series of duds. But it seems to me that editorial standards for romance novels are just waaay lower than for books in other genres. Now, I'll admit that I'm seeing more mistakes in NY-pubbed books than I used to. Let's just chalk that up to the deplorable state of education in this country and the fact that copy editors probably aren't as good as they used to be. I know I'm overly picky because I used to be a copy editor. Fine.

But after finishing a completely shit-tastic paranormal (seriously, it had plot holes I could drive a Star Destroyer through, not to mention some of the flattest writing I've seen in a long time), I just plowed through Death Star, which a friend gave me last weekend. Everyone knows I'm a big ol' Imperial sympathizer, so it was great to see nuanced Imperial characters in profic, but what struck me more was how much better written that book was (and actually, the two Terminator novels I read as well, even though I really can't stand Alan Dean Foster) than any of the romance novels I'd sampled. And it was mass-market genre fiction, not exactly a novel that was trumpeted as the next Finnegan's Wake or something. I devoured that book, and all I had left was another paranormal, one that was a huge bestseller and one that a lot of people really seemed to love (I won't name names...there's no point, really). Anyway, I started it and wanted to claw my eyes out within the first 20 pages.

Dark, brooding, alpha hero? Check.

Total Mary Sue heroine with psychic powers, cascading raven hair, huge "sapphire" eyes, and a teeny-tiny waist? Check.

I was willing to overlook that. OK, some people like the overblown, purple approach to these things.

But then the author started head-hopping all over the place, and I threw the book away in disgust. I've ranted about that before, so I'll spare you the reruns, but seriously -- does NO ONE in the romance editorial field know what the hell third person limited is? It's not as if this book was purposely written in the omniscient p.o.v. I could have put up with that, even though it irritates the snot out of me. No, the author was in tight third person at the beginning and then started bouncing back and forth between the hero and heroine once they were actually in the same scene together. I felt like I was getting mental whiplash trying to keep up. Is he looking at her? Is she looking at him? I have no freakin' idea. Who am I supposed to be relating to in the scene? God knows, because I sure as hell didn't.

I'm sure there's some good stuff out there, and maybe I'll eat my words if I ever do end up publishing something in the romance genre. But at least my readers won't have to worry about me screwing up something as simple as p.o.v. Sheesh.

Comments

[elementalevil.livejournal.com]

Yup...all this to the nth degree.

There are some good romance novels out there, but by and large the ratio of drek to good stuff seems much, much higher than in sci fi and/or...well, hell, any other genre except zombies, which is 95% total bullshit by people who can't write.

ahem.

It drives me absolutely batshit that head-hopping is acceptable in the genre, even apparently encouraged in some parts. What, the flowery language isn't ridiculous enough? Let's not get into the complete asshole heroes (dark, handsome, troubled? yes, gimme some of that, but let's leave the abusive jackasses at home, k?)

I have a story that I'll probably have to try to sell as a romance- it's certainly got a love story but I don't think it's quite historical enough to market it as that - but generally I'm so disgusted with the genre that I don't even want to be associated with it.

I'm also seeing such things spilling into regular paranormal fiction and urban fantasy, which really bugs the shit out of me. If it's an urban fantasy novel with a chick on the cover it's basically a thinly veiled paranormal novel and you don't find out until after you waste $$ on it. GAH.

Am wondering what the bestselling paranormal you hurled aside was, though... ;)

[christinex1001.livejournal.com]

OK, I'll spill. It was Dark Prince by Christine Feehan. It's the first of her Carpathian novels. I guess there are a lot more. Seriously, I don't know how people can get through eight or nine books written like that. I only made it to page 35 and wanted to claw my eyes out. No way I was going to make it through 350+ more of the same.

There was an interesting discussion about the differences between paranormal romance and urban fantasy some time last week (or maybe the week before), but now I can't remember whether it was on Dear Author or Smart Bitches. But I'm not really into tattooed ass-kickers, so NONE of those books are the sort of thing I'd be likely to pick up. Is it just me, or do 90% of those book covers look the same?

Thank God it costs me very little to self-pub....

[elementalevil.livejournal.com]

Ooooh. I went to Amazon to check out the reviews and look at the second one down - before I realized when it was posted I thought it might've been yours! :D http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Prince-Carpathians-Book/dp/0505523728

The heroine's named Raven? That in itself would turn me off.

I'll troll through DA and SB to see the convo, as I've been pretty frustrated with both lately. I generally like urban fantasy - when it's urban fantasy. Lately, two out of three UFs I pick up are basically the same freaking rehashed romance with some goblins or werewolves thrown in. Oh, and they're always in first person. ALWAYS. I love first person - I love them the way I love ass-kickers, but like ass-kickers, it's seriously overdone in that genre.

And yeah, the covers do all look pretty much the same. Tattooed gal (all of them looking like a size four) in either low-cut jeans and a cropped tank top (to better show off the tats!) or a short skirt with stiletto boots. Not sure if they're trying to pick up more male readers or what...

[christinex1001.livejournal.com]

Ha -- just read it. :-) I'm glad other people agree that the book is badly written and completely lacking in tension. I mean, I could tell they were going to be going at it like rabbits very soon, even though I dropped the thing before they did the nasty. I know I'm old school, but I like pages and pages of tension before we have the big bang. Otherwise, what's the payoff?

There's been an interesting discussion of how the RWA has been basically ghettoizing epublishers and their writers. Since I'm thinking of trying epubs next, it was interesting (although I guess I won't have any luck with them, either, since I don't have acrobatic sex in the first ten pages).

I love first person, too, but I could see how the sameness could get frustrating.

You know, one day I'd like to see a book where a demon picks up one of these teeny tiny heroines and breaks her over his knee. There's some realism for you!

[harmony-bites.livejournal.com]

Ditto. But given my own Romance post you probably know this. And its not like I just picked up random books off the shelves or based on covers or blurbs (the dud theory). Nooooooooooooo. I sought out recommendations, cross-checked for ones that got multiple mentions, and sampled those. Like you, I liked Crusie. I found a Nora Roberts I liked (liked, not loved--but enjoyed at least) and the sample of Georgette Heyer I read led me to believe I might go back for more some day. But the rest? I read a lot in sci-fi/fantasy, and I'm sorry, but the average book you pick up randomly there is so much better than the best of the romance aisle with little exception.

That said, I wouldn't despair. There are a lot of authors in the Sci-fi/Fantasy aisle that write stories that are basically romances. You won't find Feehan in that aisle--not in my local branch of Barnes & Noble anyway, but in Fantasy/Romance you can find Robin McKinley, Charlene Harris, Anne Bishop, Sharon Shinn, Mercedes Lackey, Lois Bujold, Jacqueline Carey among others...

I find even many YA romances rec'd to me to be a higher standard: Kristin Cashore, Tamora Pierce...

I'd just forget the romance aisle and look at the next aisles over for models of what is out there you can love--and would fit you as an author.

[christinex1001.livejournal.com]

I tried one Nora Roberts, and I didn't finish it either because of the head-hopping. That is a major pet peeve of mine. But I know everyone seems to love her.

Georgette Heyer is love. My two favorites of hers are Venezia and The Nonesuch. I highly recommend them!

Guess I'll have to start browsing the SF/F aisles again. I sort of gave up because everything seemed as if it was part of a series, and I hate getting embroiled in these ginormous epics that just go on and on and on... (not to mention having to decipher where you're supposed to start and hoping that the store still carries the book). What happened to a good old standalone story?

I do like Linnea Sinclair, though.

[harmony-bites.livejournal.com]

I tried one Nora Roberts, and I didn't finish it either because of the head-hopping.

I tried an early Nora Roberts on the list, and hated it, then read her recent bestseller Tribute, and that's the one I liked. So maybe she got better? But only liked. It wasn't a keeper, one worth a place on my limited bookshelf space. I wasn't moved or felt writer's envy or anything.

Georgette Heyer is love. My two favorites of hers are Venezia and The Nonesuch. I highly recommend them!

And she's definitely to be found in the romance aisle--so an exception to the rule. Linnea Sinclair I haven't tried.

What happened to a good old standalone story?

They're not good cash cows? After my comment I thought of two "urban fantasies" I do like not in the tough talking gun porn tattoo mold, books by Tanya Huff and Karen Armstrong--and no vamps in her series. Which is more of a universe, since each book could stand alone. I particularly enjoyed her Dime Store Magic and a lot more than the book that started the series, Bitten (because among other things I like the hero and heroine of Dime Store Magic a LOT more.

Point is, there is reading to be found I think would be a good fit for you, good research in agents and publishing lines to try--just not in that aisle.

[christinex1001.livejournal.com]

You know, I'm not even sure where Linnea Sinclair is shelved. I got the first one of hers as a present, and then bought the other two off Amazon. She writes science fiction with a very strong romance component.

I think I read a Tanya Huff novel many years ago and liked it, but normally I'm not a huge UF reader. I like classic-style fantasy better (even though it's hard to find decent stuff these days).

When searching for agents I tried to restrict myself to people who rep both romance and fantasy, just because I thought it would help in case I wanted to genre-hop. However, since all I got was a bunch of rejections, I guess it really doesn't matter. :-P

[harmony-bites.livejournal.com]

I like classic-style fantasy better (even though it's hard to find decent stuff these days).

Don't know if you've read them but Lois McMaster Bujold has written tclassic-style fantasy/romance that has won Hugos and Nebulas, and yes, which are good, I loved her Chalion books and a friend of mine raves about The Sharing Knife (which I haven't gotten around to) She's also famous for her space operas, the Vorkosigan series, though I haven't read those.

There's also Jacqeline Carey, her Kushiel books are also classic-style romance/fantasy, a good example of how far you could push sex in published fiction (LK Hamilton is to in terms of how far you push it, but you don't want to get me on the subject of her, I could rant viciously for hours). I love Carey's books. All first person though if you have an aversion to that a la Renita.

And I'm just starting Naomi Novik, His Majesty's Dragon, a cross between Horatio Hornblower and classic fantasy (ie dragons). I'm told there's a romantic element.

When searching for agents I tried to restrict myself to people who rep both romance and fantasy, just because I thought it would help in case I wanted to genre-hop. However, since all I got was a bunch of rejections, I guess it really doesn't matter. :-P

FWIW, an editor who mentored new writers said the best way to get a truly good agent is to sell something first, then approach them with the sale asking them to negotiate the contract. There are publishing lines that will take unsolicited manuscripts and others that will take them if upon invitation if they like your query letter--so you might want to check guidelines.

The drawback to that is w/o an agent backing you, even if a line says they take unsolicited manuscripts it can take months before you get an answer and most publishers do not allow simultaneous submission. I know someone whose manuscript hung in limbo a year without an acceptance or rejection until she withdrew it.

The other way is to go the short fiction route, which is the route a friend of mine has taken. She's been building a large list of semi-pro and modest pro sales and she figured once it grew enough, she could approach an agent with her novel--with the letter stating she had sold. She hasn't approached agents yet, but as it turned out one of her editors liked her so much he's bringing out an anthology of her shorts--she hopes that will lead to publishing her novel.

Or maybe like ladyofthemasque (Jean Johnson--she's public about her fandom links with her publisher's blessing) youll have an editor among your SSHG fans offer you a seven book deal and you'll become a bestselling author--but I fear that's a strategy with about as much success as hanging around an ice cream parlour expecting to get a leading role in a major motion picture...

LotM is the only one among us that hit that particular jackpot--and at the risk of being mobbed by her fans, frankly we have far better authors who I know are piling up the agent rejections. It's hard. JKR admits to 13 rejections for the first HP book and I've read speculations that it was more like 40 to 80 before she found representation.

[christinex1001.livejournal.com]

The Kushiel books are definitely something I keep meaning to try her stuff, so I'll have to check that out next.

I haven't read any LKH, but just hearing other people rant about her is enough to make me stay away from that crap with a 10-meter cattle prod.

And I adore first person (maybe because I grew up reading Mary Stewart and Victoria Holt), so I'm actually happy when I come across a book written in that p.o.v.

I've been leery of submitting directly to publishers because of that whole "no simultaneous submissions" mess. Letting things sit in limbo for six months or a year for each damn book is kind of a non-starter for someone like me, who's not getting any younger. :-(

I have one short piece (supposedly) coming out in a pulp magazine this summer, but my problem is that I have a hard time with short fiction. I tend to think in 100K-word arcs (which I suppose is great in general novelist terms, but...).

I'm actually thinking about starting to query e-publishers. I know a lot of people don't think of them as completely legitimate, but it would still be a publishing credit and might convince an agent that my stuff is salable.

[harmony-bites.livejournal.com]

I have one short piece (supposedly) coming out in a pulp magazine this summer, but my problem is that I have a hard time with short fiction. I tend to think in 100K-word arcs (which I suppose is great in general novelist terms, but...).

That's not an easy way to break through either. The short fiction market is very, very tight, and even if you have a good story you could get rejected for just not fitting their publication or anthology's theme, or being to much like another story they bought. So, no easy way. Just drive, persistence, and not letting yourself lose heart.

I'm actually thinking about starting to query e-publishers. I know a lot of people don't think of them as completely legitimate, but it would still be a publishing credit and might convince an agent that my stuff is salable.

Why not? I can't see a way in which getting publishing credits and exposure to an audience could be a bad thing.

[anamin.livejournal.com]

I set myself the assignment of buying/reading romance novels. I think the historical ones are best because some reasearch is involved, but modern ones don't do it for me, and there's a lot of vampire romance now. . .ugh! just ugh!

[christinex1001.livejournal.com]

I grew up on Victoria Holt's historical romances. It just seems that so many of them these days are not well researched, and I get a "my history is pastede on yay!" feel from them. I'll admit I'm picky because I was a history major and have done a lot of historical re-enacting and costuming, so I'll pick up on flubs that some other people might not, but my feeling is that if you're getting PAID to write this stuff, you should do your $#&@!! homework.

[irishmagik7.livejournal.com]

I will admit that a lot of historical writers don't do in-depth history. It's essentially just a story in costume. That being said, from my own reading history I can safely say that I have never, ever enjoyed either Christine Feehan or Nora Roberts. Romance novels aren't for everyone. I find though that a lot of the time you do have to look around when your in the romance aisle, and usually the smaller, less known authors are the best ones.

In romance, the reason you're a best seller is because you were able to get a lot of sales, but not necessarily to the most intelligent section of readers. A lot of people don't have very good taste and they'll just buy something because it's from a best-selling author.

I've got a few recommendations if you want to check out the library: Eve Silver's "Dark Desires" is a historical, with a bit of a mystery/paranormal edge to it. The author is actually a professor of anatomy so she's pretty accurate about the cadavers, but fair warning it is a little purple, but she doesn't head hop.

Also any of Judith McNaught's historicals are good. She was one of the first writers I read when I started to get into the genre and they're very good.

[christinex1001.livejournal.com]

You know, I hadn't even thought about the lowest common denominator factor, but you're probably right on that. God knows I can't stand to watch most of the "popular" crap on TV these days. Why should romance novels be any different?

Thanks for the recs -- I'll try to check those out.

[irishmagik7.livejournal.com]

Just thought of a good contemporary author to rec, Jayne Ann Krentz, but it has to be her early stuff. "Deep Waters" and "Absolutely, Positively" are two of my favourites. They've got complex heroes and good plots.

[suburbanbeatnik.livejournal.com]

I'm a big romance novel fan, and I swear to God, 99.9% of them out there are complete crap. Not to mention I hate head-hopping as much as I hate Nora Roberts (although I'll never tell SB Sarah that, she'll disown me). I also read a real stinker of an e-romance last week that left me in the foulest mood. Sometimes I wonder why I even stick with the genre... but then, after plowing through piles of shitty romances for months, I'll find a book that will be pure awesome, and I'll feel great. It takes an uncommon level of dedication, though. :P

I know I couldn't ever write romance, though (my work is more in the vein of Judith Merkle Riley/Gillian Bradshaw, who write historicals with a strong romance theme). My hunch is that your real love is SF/F... didn't you once tell me you were thinking of turning "Dust of Empire" into an original? That would be so awesome!

[christinex1001.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank God I'm not the only one. I just could not figure out all the worshipping at the altar of Nora Roberts when my one sample of her writing left me completely cold. She seems like a wonderful person, but I could not get into her book at all. And when I've had a bad experience with an author I'm usual loath to try another of her books.

True, I grew up reading SF/F, with a good dose of Mary Stewart and Victoria Holt thrown in for good measure. There does seem to be more openness to genre blurring these days, which makes me hopeful that people want to read SF/F that also has big chunky thread of romance in it.

If not, I'm sure I'll keep writing anyway, just because I can't seem to stop, but one of these days it would be nice to get some outside recognition from a pro...

[suburbanbeatnik.livejournal.com]

I actually read Nora Roberts' "Born in Fire" trilogy while I was in Belfast. Oh GOD, that was traumatizing. That trilogy is set in Ireland, and she is completely tone-deaf at writing Irish people and depicting Irish culture, no matter what she seems to think. I actually read excerpts of it to my friends over there, and they would laugh their asses off (one book had this Irish guy from the country clueless about what bottled water was).

Roberts also mentioned the Troubles a number of times in her books in this completely cutesy way.... I read one of those excerpts to a woman I met on the train from Dublin to Belfast (Ireland is a great place for getting into random convos with strangers)... and she was outraged. She had grown up in Belfast in the '70s, you see, and she hated seeing all that portrayed flippantly.

Don't stop writing! You so rock, and I'm sure you'll find recognition eventually.

[christinex1001.livejournal.com]

Erm...wouldn't the fact that it was referred to as "the Troubles" be a clue that you should probably treat the subject with respect??

It kind of blows my mind how little research people do. And Nora has no excuse -- it's not as if she couldn't pay someone to do the legwork and then pass it on to her.

Well, I won't stop writing, but how much of it will be fanfic and how much of it will be original is anyone's guess. :-P

[suburbanbeatnik.livejournal.com]

What happened in BiF was that this glass sculpture artist from Co. Clare, at this big gallery opening in Dublin, replies to a stereotypically snooty English art guy, who is trying to psychoanalyze her work, that her sculpture represents the current Irish struggle against English oppression, i.e. the Troubles. What made it so insufferable was that the character did it "roguishly" and with "a twinkle in her eye." Of course the English guy is embarrassed and harrumphs, and the Dubliner gallery owner love interest is amused. Ugh, it just rang false in so many ways. It was like making a cute remark about the Oklahoma city bombing.

From the dedication page, I guess Roberts has vacationed in SW Ireland, but from the tone of her books, you would think that she just watched "Darby O'Gill" and "The Quiet Man" on repeat.

I am actually reminded of this time when I was down in Co. Wexford, staying at a B&B. I figured, "Oh, I'm in the South, people should be more chillin' about history, then they are back North." Um, no. There was a statue in town of a priest who died fighting the English, back in the 18th century. The B&B owner was telling me about it, and I tried to tell a joke. The B&B guy was NOT amused, and I remember how SCARY INTENSE he got, saying that this guy was a martyr and should be revered. It was sure an interesting moment!

Speaking of fanfic, how's "Refugees" coming along? :D

[christinex1001.livejournal.com]

Or, as a native of L.A., making jokes about the riots. Second most terrifying thing I've ever experienced in my life (first was the Northridge quake).

I think it's a common problem with writers who want to write someone who has a very different background from themselves but who don't bother to do anything in the way of research. I'd at least want to read a memoir or two by someone from that geographical area just to get a feel for how they look at the world.

Americans can be so myopic.

Refugees is...stalled. I have the next chapter halfway written. I actually know how it ends. I just need to get there. I should have some writing time tomorrow night when Erik's at class, and I hope I can finish it then. Last week I was sick with this horrible sinus infection that's going around (missed a day and a half of work because I felt like utter crapola). Teach me to share a hookah w/o switching out the tip! :-o

[suburbanbeatnik.livejournal.com]

I know the stalled feeling... I'm trying to get back into "Daughter of the Empire" (still wondering what to rename it) and am struggling a bit.

Did you get my last email? I can resend it, if you like.

I hope you're feeling better!

[kudilu.livejournal.com]

hi *waves*
was just poking around after coming here from Ashwinder, and noticed this post.

In general, yes, Romance Novels are crap. (and yes, the caps are intentional). Honestly, I've only found two romance series that i like - one really old, and one brand new.
The old ones are the original Tyler series - they're actually all by different authors, but they have an interesting murder-mystery plot that arcs through the entire series, as well as real not-explicitly-to-get-the-characters-to-shag individual plots. I know there are new Tyler books, but i've never managed to get my hands on them to read them. someday . . .
The new ones are actually by a fanfic author - LadyOfTheMasque. She got discovered via fanfiction and got original novels published. Look for the Sons of Destiny - it's an 8-book set, and it was just recently completed - and she's got more on the way, though not in the same set.

[christinex1001.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the recs, although I'll have to get past my bitter envy of Jean Johnson to try any of her books (hey, at least I'm able to admit that I'm not the most evolved person in the world). :-P

And thanks for wandering over here from Ashwinder. I always wonder how many people actually look at an author's profile and follow the links.